Deformation/armature fix?

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The_Chronicle_GER
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Deformation/armature fix?

Post by The_Chronicle_GER »

I tried the bone rigging for myself and for the first time it looks quite good - but when opening up that model in XPS, I encounter some problems which start with the source object already - I'm talking about Sasha Phyronix from Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal (PS2 version; Engine used is the Insomniac Engine v. 1.0):
  • When opening the model in Blender, the model appears as shown the preview seen on the link: Her legs are way to close to each other.
  • After the armature inserted and the model completly rigged, switching to pose mode in Blender deforms the legs quite ugly. (Same applies for XPS).
  • The attached image is taken in XPS 11.8 and shows point 2 quite good: The model doesn't react naturally to the posing (as it's supposed to be).
  • The two objects in this model don't get connected to one.
Sasha Phyronix_preview.jpg
Is there any way/tutorial to fix all this so that the model reacts naturally? I used two tutorials made by Blender on Youtube (Tutorial 1: [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq7gTaTZ-yk[/youtube]
Tutorial 2: [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMGTQFOgV_0[/youtube] ) to get this done... Source file is available here: My attempt of bone rigging
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Anx
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Re: Deformation/armature fix?

Post by Anx »

The_Chronicle_GER wrote:I tried the bone rigging for myself and for the first time it looks quite good - but when opening up that model in XPS, I encounter some problems which start with the source object already - I'm talking about Sasha Phyronix from Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal (PS2 version; Engine used is the Insomniac Engine v. 1.0):
  • When opening the model in Blender, the model appears as shown the preview seen on the link: Her legs are way to close to each other.
  • After the armature inserted and the model completly rigged, switching to pose mode in Blender deforms the legs quite ugly. (Same applies for XPS).
  • The attached image is taken in XPS 11.8 and shows point 2 quite good: The model doesn't react naturally to the posing (as it's supposed to be).
  • The two objects in this model don't get connected to one.
Sasha Phyronix_preview.jpg
Is there any way/tutorial to fix all this so that the model reacts naturally? I used two tutorials made by Blender on Youtube (Tutorial 1: [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq7gTaTZ-yk[/youtube]
Tutorial 2: [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMGTQFOgV_0[/youtube] ) to get this done... Source file is available here: My attempt of bone rigging
Bone-Weight-Painting
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The_Chronicle_GER
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Re: Deformation/armature fix?

Post by The_Chronicle_GER »

Okay - so I have to pose first and then make the weight-painting?

I tried that already as well (somehow that slipped through in my opening post), but it seems I did something wrong...

EDIT: I think I found my fail here: The weight-mapping is kinda off. Also, some bones didn't connect well with the mesh. (I made a 2nd attempt after seeing your post, Anx.) And yet, it doesn't work off as it's supposed to be. Should I upload this attempt as well or is the first one enough to fix it? If yes, can you fix it, please?
If you can't fix it, can you please provide me instead the bone weights I need to set up that it works?
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Anx
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Re: Deformation/armature fix?

Post by Anx »

The_Chronicle_GER wrote:Okay - so I have to pose first and then make the weight-painting?

I tried that already as well (somehow that slipped through in my opening post), but it seems I did something wrong...

EDIT: I think I found my fail here: The weight-mapping is kinda off. Also, some bones didn't connect well with the mesh. (I made a 2nd attempt after seeing your post, Anx.) And yet, it doesn't work off as it's supposed to be. Should I upload this attempt as well or is the first one enough to fix it? If yes, can you fix it, please?
If you can't fix it, can you please provide me instead the bone weights I need to set up that it works?
Right, pose it first and then make the weight-painting. You can assign weights to the vertices of the Object by painting on it with weight brushes, using the Brush Tools with blending mode "Add" or "Subtract".
And,
if you have a complex mesh (or intersecting meshes, like the legs/boots), it is sometimes not easy to paint on all vertices in Weight Paint Mode. Suppose you only want to paint on a small area of the Mesh and keep the rest untouched. This is where selection masking comes into play.
And,
you canAssign (or Remove) weights to active vertex group (bones) by switching from the "Weight Paint" mode to the "Edit Mode".
That is the key to solve the wrong deformations. Watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE91YPK0WYw on time 0:38
Note also the "Remove" button, to the right of the "Assign" button. :ohn:



Sure, I can fix it: :mrgreen:
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but after you have already made such a great progress in rigging and skinning, you should finish it yourself. :ohn: :pi:

It is always a good idea to made at first a proper armature.
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vs
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however, you can fix also a wrong weight painting on a wrong armature.

Basically, your work has two types of errors:
  1. surface objects which do not follow the bone
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  2. Surface objects that follow the wrong bone
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How to fix?
Armor part near the elbow:
- Pose the (left) arm slightly.
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- Enter the Paint mode and select the elbow vertex group (bone). Use the brush with "Add"
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- Select vertex group after vertex group to find a bone which influence the mesh (and should not do it)
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- use The "Sub" mode
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Do the same ("Sub") for the hair part
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Left Boots follow the left leg AND the right leg:

- Enter the "Edit" mode and select some of the vertices of the left boot
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- Use Ctr+J (select joined vertices) to select he whole left boot.
Select the bones (vertex groups) of the right bones and press "remove".
Select the bone of the left leg and press "assign"
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- do it again, for the other boot part
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- Now, the left boot deforme correct:
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- The same workflow for the right boot:
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Weld legs (removed "double" vertices) :(
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/201 ... vertex.jpg

- Select some "faces" of the left leg
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- "Split" this faces
- "Assign" faces to the vertex group "left thigh"
- "Remove" faces from the vertex group "right thigh"

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- Same workflow for the right leg. OR, use now the "Weight Paint" mode "Sub" and "Add"
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Profit
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BTW:
A professional modeler make the skinning using quads (not tris)
https://thundercloud-studio.com/tutoria ... uman-head/
ÔÇô Use quad as much as possible and use triangle when necessary, triangle are not recommanded but it doesnt harm having a few triangle to terminate our edge loop to advoid adding extra unnecessary loops , but keep in mind the fact that the model might not deform nicely when animated and smoothed but it will save us unnecessary edge loops and faces.
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Review our topology to check whether our character will have a good deform when doing expression or not.
This topology should be improved ;)

ÔÇô Avoid poles ( where vertex share more than 4 edges, it ÔÇÿs impossible to avoid pole in our model
but we should hide these at those area that are less seen in the model because the areas that have
pole are not smoothed properly )
Beautiful, Yet Friendly

:o :o :o
What is a good topology? Figure A or figure B?
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:idea: :idea: :idea:
Think of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnIOsWAPJAU
/\
/ \
----
|\/|
|/\|
----
If you (your graphic card) can paint the topology in one stroke, it's a good (efficient) topology.
The_Chronicle_GER
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Re: Deformation/armature fix?

Post by The_Chronicle_GER »

Okay - I'll try that one out there. If I somehow shouldn't be able to get this job done, I'd kindly ask for your fix (from which you posted a preview).
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The_Chronicle_GER
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Re: Deformation/armature fix?

Post by The_Chronicle_GER »

There came a different question to my mind while trying to get the job done... It has to do with the bone parenting: There are so many variations of bone parenting modes in Blender that I'm confused by them. Which one works the best for converting to XPS?

Also, I converted Ranamon from Digimon Masters Online and Lenneth Valkyrie (from Valkyrie Profile) both from MMD to XPS - I even scaled them down 'cause I don't wanna have them too large in XPS. But the reactions Ranamon shows in XPS is totally different from previous MMD conversions I made (Lenneth Valkyrie now has some non-functional bones, but I can filter them out somehow):

Ranamon deforms when posing the armature, but it's waaaay off a regular being. I did a little research in XPS and found out that the bone points (these little squares which are visible when moving the cursor over a model in the posing screen) are pretty far away from the actual mesh. Blender shows the armature positioned normally (where it's supposed to be). Where could this come from? Here's my shot at this model: Ranamon (with XPS port)

Also, I found on models-resource this model of Magnus from Kid Icarus: Uprising. The preview on the site shows both models (he brings his weapon along) seperated, but in Blender, Magnus appears to be lying on his back and the weapon standing upright just below his feet. I found out that I can work better with models when the character and weapon are seperated (= making at least 2 models out of one, if the weapon is carried in hand; think of some of the Dissidia FF NT models found over at DeviantArt). Is that possible for this model? If yes, how do I get this job done?

I tried it again on Sasha Phyronix and I'd like to have a quick check-up if I'm doing everything right with the weight paining and such. But, I'm honest in this point, I can't find some of the modes/functions in Blender @Anx mentioned... So, can anyone in here please check this model regarding bone weights and add to the small tutorial posted before? Here's my attempt: Partly ported Sasha Phyronix
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The_Chronicle_GER
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Re: Deformation/armature fix?

Post by The_Chronicle_GER »

Since I'm porting some other characters I ripped with Ninja Ripper and need to use this tutorial here, I noticed a couple of things while I was trying to fix some models from Metin2:
First off, when weight painting, I need to be careful not to paint over the desired area to get the weight right. Then I need to assign the right vertex parts to that stuff and make sure I either click the remove button underneath the vertex list or remove the vertices there altogether. That requires - on the other hand - a whole lot of testing inside XNALara_XPS (I'm using the version 11.8.8 and I'm still clueless about the real name for this program version) and I can say I'm getting close to the finish. Back to Metin2: I tried to fix the Assassin character (male version) who got a seperate bone for the face mesh which hadn't been the case for e. g. the Warrior character (male). I went and deleted the bone, used the vertex/bone weight fix tutorial from here and still, I'm left clueless. That is 'cause of this:
The face mesh seems to have a mind of its own. It follows the bone assigned to, yes, but not with the same speed/angle the rest of the mesh does. How can I actually get the face mesh part to follow the remainer of the mesh and armature like every other vertice? The model in question is available here.
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ProtocolX27
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Re: Deformation/armature fix?

Post by ProtocolX27 »

When mesh parts move at different speeds, that is usually a result of lingering weights from another bone. Any vertex is not supposed to have more than a total weight of 1.0. Let's say if you completely weight paint vertices to a wrist bone of 1.0 if that wrist area has bad weights of say a chest bone at any value above 0... it will cause a conflict causing some parts to move more slowly. I would check to make sure that that area in question has no weights to start with or at least go through each vertex group and do a 'Remove' for all unrelated bones. Some of those verts just might have bad assignments or light weights that might not be easy to see.
The_Chronicle_GER
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Re: Deformation/armature fix?

Post by The_Chronicle_GER »

ProtocolX27 wrote:When mesh parts move at different speeds, that is usually a result of lingering weights from another bone. Any vertex is not supposed to have more than a total weight of 1.0. Let's say if you completely weight paint vertices to a wrist bone of 1.0 if that wrist area has bad weights of say a chest bone at any value above 0... it will cause a conflict causing some parts to move more slowly. I would check to make sure that that area in question has no weights to start with or at least go through each vertex group and do a 'Remove' for all unrelated bones. Some of those verts just might have bad assignments or light weights that might not be easy to see.
I just can't seem to find the lingering weights on the models I'm working on... I'm serious with that, but I need another pair of eyes to help me find them - the first model is already hosted (link is in my previous post!) and here's the second one.
Can anyone please show me where those lingering weights are located?
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The_Chronicle_GER
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Re: Deformation/armature fix?

Post by The_Chronicle_GER »

The_Chronicle_GER wrote:I just can't seem to find the lingering weights on the models I'm working on... I'm serious with that, but I need another pair of eyes to help me find them - the first model is already hosted (link is in my previous post!) and here's the second one.
Can anyone please show me where those lingering weights are located?
I just tested the model again and... now the weights seem to be totally off... I have ABSOLUTELY no idea what I could've done wrong... :?:

HELP!
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